Occasionally, I contribute to “Mi Yodea,” otherwise known as judaism.stackexchange.com. This website allows people to ask and answer questions, as well as to vote on whether questions / answers are good. I recently answered a question there that has relevance to Daf Yomi.
This is the question1: “I’ve noticed that in the Gemara you often see a pattern where two people are discussing an issue in front of an Amora (e.g. R’ Yirmiyah) while he is asleep. After their discussion, he wakes up and gives his opinion. Is there any solid source for why the Amoraim would be conducting a discussion in such a manner?”
To tie this in to the daf: Bava Batra 16b-17a seeks to establish that Yishmael repented in Avraham’s lifetime. Fifth-generation Ravina I and Rav Chama bar Buzi were Rava’s students,2 and were sitting before him as he dozed. Ravina asked Rav Chama bar Buzi whether he indeed interpreted גְּוִיעָה to mean the death of the righteous. The latter replies in the affirmative, though only when it accompanies אֲסִיפָה, gathering. Yishmael is a counterexample. Thereupon, Rava stirs himself and says, “Young ones, Yishmael repented in Avraham’s lifetime, as it states in Bereishit 25:9, ‘And Yitzchak and Yishmael his sons buried him.’”
Other people answered this question on “Mi Yodea” in ways I would deem speculative. For instance, that it shows the students’ or the teacher’s devotion; that in one instance, Moed Katan 28a, it means near death, so it means the same in a subset of other instances3; that the teacher is channeling answers from On High, or that the teacher was actually delivering the shiur in its entirety while sleeping.
The Dynamics of Dispute
Rather, a straightforward approach has to do with the typical dynamic of Amoraim studying with colleagues or with their teacher. If a question arises, a student might inquire of his teacher and hear the teacher’s personal opinion or the teacher’s citation of an earlier tradition. Then the student might accept or challenge that opinion. If students are alone, they might formulate their own positions and argue with one another. The presence of the teacher typically precludes the debate between the students who are colleagues of one another. Perhaps they would consider it disrespectful.
Here, the teacher is not fully “asleep”. ישן means sleep. קָא מְנַמְנֵם means that he was merely dozing, in an in-between state. Rav Ashi himself gives us this definition. On Taanit 12a, Abaye and Rava argue about when communal fasts begin. If one sleeps after finishing his nighttime meal, does that preclude further eating before morning? Abaye cites a brayta that one may awaken and eat. Rava responds that the brayta’s case is מִתְנַמְנֵם. Rav Ashi explains that מִתְנַמְנֵם is נִים וְלָא נִים, תִּיר וְלָא תִּיר, asleep but not fully asleep, awake but not fully awake.
Similarly, in Pesachim 120b, Abaye observes that his teacher Rabba is dozing off on the night of Pesach. He asks, “Is Master sleeping (נָאֵים)?” Rabba replies, “I am merely dozing (מְנַמְנַמְנָא).” There are repercussions in terms of being able to eat the Paschal lamb or the afikoman. This level of dozing includes a level of consciousness. Similarly, in Megillah 18b, one can fulfill his obligation by reading the Megillah while dozing, which Rav Ashi defines as above.
Thus, in our local case, Rava was half-asleep, so he was not teaching his students or responding to inquiries but was awake enough to listen in on their conversation and stir and chime in where he thought relevant. That is why it is relevant to mention the dozing -–- to explain the structure of the ensuing sugya.
Other Half-Dozers
Let’s examine other sugyot with this structure. Moed Katan 28a, mentioned above, doesn’t have this structure. Rather, Rav Seorim sits before his brother Rava and sees that he is dozing. Rava tells his brother, “Master, tell him, the Angel of Death, not to torment me.” They converse for a bit, and Rava promises to visit his brother to visit him in a dream after his death, which Rava does. A similar incident appears on the same page, with Rava sitting before his dying teacher Rav Nachman. While this is indeed sitting before someone who is מְנַמְנֵם, the rest of the structure, of students conversing in front of a teacher, who then fully awakes (אִיתְּעַר) and replies to them, is absent. I would not extrapolate from this case to the others.
Besides our sugya, there are five other half-dozers. In Shabbat 63b, Rabbi Avin and Rav Huna III were sitting before their teacher, Rabbi Yirmeya, who was dozing. They argued about the distinction between a garter and ankle-chains, until Rabbi Yirmeya awoke and said, “Correct, and Rabbi Yochanan said likewise”. In Shabbat 145b, Rabbi Chiya bar Abba and Rabbi Asi sit before their teacher, Rabbi Yochanan, who dozes. They argue why Babylonian fowl is better than that of Israel, until Rabbi Yochanan awakes, calls them young ones, and tells them a different reason. In Pesachim 35a, it is fifth-generation Rav Pappa and Rav Huna b. Rav Yehoshua who sit before their dozing teacher, fourth-generation Rav Iddi bar Avin I, and argue about Reish Lakish’s reason for saying that consuming a certain type of leaven doesn’t incur karet. Finally, Rav Iddi bar Avin awakes and tells these “young ones” the true reason.
In Nedarim 29b, Rabbi Avin and Rav Yitzchak bar Yosef sit before a dozing Rabbi Yirmeya, discussing Bar Padda’s position that if one redeems consecrated saplings, they become immediately reconsecrated. Rabbi Yirmeya awakes and tells them that this isn’t how Rabbi Yochanan explained it. In Gittin 11b, Rav Yitzchak bar Yosef and Rav Huna III discuss the Sages’ statement that one cannot retract a bill of manumission given to an agent, until Rabbi Yirmeya awakes and tells the “young ones” what Rabbi Yochanan said about it.
Within these examples, there is a general trend in which the participants (or the ones being discussed) are Amoraim from the Land of Israel. Often, as in our sugya, the teacher tells us what Rabbi Yochanan thinks. And it always seems to be the students discussing before their teacher, who affirms or corrects their discussion.
Rabbi Dr. Joshua Waxman teaches computer science at Stern College for Women, and his research includes programmatically finding scholars and scholastic relationships in the Babylonian Talmud.
1 See https://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/15473
2 The other time Rav Chama bar Buzi appears is Berachot 50a, where he attends the Exilarch’s banquet along with Ravina I. He tries to gather 100 participants for a breakaway mezuman so that they can recite a special form, but Ravina stops him by telling him Rava’s position, that there is no special form for 100 participants.
3 This seems doubtful, for Rava appears elsewhere dozing before students, and Rabbi Yirmeya dozes before different pairs of students several times, about different subject matter.
